[demonrail666]

Let Go and Under My Skin are great pop albums and she was the main writer on both of them. Pretty much every song on those albums could've been a hit single. I love that whole power-pop thing and she was very good at it.

[stu666]

avril lavigne > kanye west

[Severian]

Originally Posted by stu666

avril lavigne > kanye west

Hehe.

No, piña colada > Tupac Shakur! Volkswagen > tree trunk!

[Severian]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Let Go and Under My Skin are great pop albums and she was the main writer on both of them. Pretty much every song on those albums could've been a hit single. I love that whole power-pop thing and she was very good at it.

Well I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers. I won't stomp on anyone's opinion. You all listen to Sonic Youth so I trust you all unconditionally.

But I'm just not into whatever it is that she's about. I don't feel like the fact that she wrote most of her music is a reason to like her, just as I don't feel that, say, Rihanna not writing most of her music is a reason to dislike her. Either the music does stuff or it doesn't. This doesn't do stuff for me. That's all.

It's whatever makes your ears and brain feel good! Seriously. I'm not trying to be a dick. I completely forget that Avril Lavign was ever a thing until someone says her name, at which point I remember for a minute that she was a thing, and remember why I stopped remembering that she was a thing (because she did nothing for me). So I have zero investment in minimizing her music or insulting anyone who likes her music. She has not impacted my life in any way. So please don't think I'm shitting on anyone for liking her. I just don't like. I don't even dislike her.

I think the word "talented" was what prompted my little tirade.

I'm ambivalent about whatshername, and I'm sorry if I was offensive. Truly.

[louder]

Haha. Well you see, I like some Britney songs. "Everytime" is still an epic pop ballad to this day. Avril has Britney's pop princess mannerisms, but she also writes her own songs and her voice is easier on the ears / she has more vocal range. I like how she's into more aggressive guitar-driven music, stuff that's lacking from today's pop, but she never really goes completely heavy as her music always sounds delicate and pretty.

On top of that, she simply knows how to make earworms and consistently comes up with infectious hooks that get stuck in your head. At her very best, her music makes me feel joy, sadness and liberation, and truth be told somewhat miss being a teenager. Funnily I actually hated it back then, but when I hear Avril's music I can see the beauty in it. It's odd.

Sure she's like Britney meets Alanis Morissette meets mall pop punk meets post-grunge meets nu-metal.. I'm amused as I'm typing this as it really shows why her music is so irrelevant and outdated. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. In my opinion, pop music should all go 90's revival.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by Severian

But I'm just not into whatever it is that she's about. I don't feel like the fact that she wrote most of her music is a reason to like her, just as I don't feel that, say, Rihanna not writing most of her music is a reason to dislike her. Either the music does stuff or it doesn't. This doesn't do stuff for me. That's all.

I don't think those songs are any more or less great because she wrote them but you asked if she was talented so that's why I mentioned it.

and I'm sorry if I was offensive. Truly.

No problem, you weren't

[Severian]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

I don't think those songs are any more or less great because she wrote them but you asked if she was talented so that's why I mentioned it.



No problem, you weren't

Ok cool.

I didn't ask if she was talented though. I said "sure, she's talented in the colloquial sense of the word" or some such (yeah I know, what I said is right ^^ up there, but I can't be bothered to scroll up ). Anyway, just wanted to point that out.

[Severian]

My weird out-of-nowhere bitching has a lot to do with thus tendency I see among people (not necessarily anyone here — I'm actually thinking of some people I know "IRL") to evaluate an artist's "talent" by whether they write their own lyrics or not.

To me, that's only a piece of it. And honestly, kind of a small piece, especially when it comes to pop music. Last year Solange released an album that was positively transcendent and (while not one of my favorite albums of the year) just plain impressive as hell. She wrote virtually none of it, but she left her mark on the music, and the end result is "hers."

I hear some people gush over Taylor Swift, as though the fact that she writes not very good lyrics and knows a few very basic guitar chords makes her the "real deal," as opposed to someone like Solange or Beyoncé. But I'd take well-written songs performed with feeling and character over by someone who didn't write them over poorly written songs that are catchy but ultimately quite empty. Nothing again Swift either. But she's not more talented than Rihanna because she writes (some of) her own lyrics. They're both just talented in different ways, and neither is the whole package.

None of this has to do with Avril really.

[louder]

I feel you, Ed Sheeran and J. Cole are seen as "real musicians" among the general public as well. I'm sure the casual listener considers both "more talented" than Kanye which is just sad.

[noisereductions]

I have always liked her. It's catchy pop.

[noisereductions]

I gush over The Swift because I just really like songs haha

[Severian]

Originally Posted by louder

I feel you, Ed Sheeran and J. Cole are seen as "real musicians" among the general public as well. I'm sure the casual listener considers both "more talented" than Kanye which is just sad.

Ed Sheehan! Yes! Whatever the fuck his whole thing is! That boring sweatshirt almost-rock! It's like, I'm supposed to "appreciate" that because he writes shitty, boring castrated songs and plays guitar (not even well! At roughly the level of 75% of the male college student population). Well, I'm really fucking sorry, but I think Rihanna is 100,000 times more interesting. Solange... maybe a million times more interesting.

The "every kid gets a trophy" generation has grown up and it's congratulating everyone for doing the bare minimum.

Aretha Franklin didn't write shit. Neither did Billie fucking Holiday! Or Nina Simone! Didn't write a fucking word! Are they all less talented, for singing other people's songs AWESOMELY and with transcendent gravitas than people who write songs and play them terribly? Fuck no!

Also... I don't think anyone thinks J. Cole is a musician. He's not a musician, unless I've really missed something. He's a rapper and vocal performer.

And Kanye may have plenty of haters (right here in this thread, and all over SYG, poor souls) but I'm pretty sure the critical consensus is that he's talented. People who hate him usually don't try to suggest that he lacks creative vision or talent for production. That would be insane. Also, he's literally the most celebrated artist of our time, so I really hope nobody thinks Ed Sheeran is more talented than Kanye. It's like comparing a sloth to a cheetah, though. I don't think anyone is quite that fucking stupid.

Anyway, whatever. You guys get my point. Listen to what you love! Have no shame! If you dig Avril, I am psyched for you. Legitimately. But I know a lot of people who like to suggest that people *like* Avril (who again I know almost nothing about), are superior to people like Beyoncé just because of the writing thing, and I say that's horseshit. Just absolute fucking horseshit.

Speaking of liking lam stuff though, I've had Fleetwood Mac's "Second Hand News" stuck in my head for like a WEEK, and it's been awesome! Terrible song, but I love it. Love it I say!

(Hahahaha ed Sheehan more talented than Kanye .... baaahahahaha! At what? Taking guitar classes? Writing songs for 15-year-old white people with Reagan values? Hahahahaha. Seriously that's too rich. Please tell me you haven't heard someone actually say that!)

[noisereductions]

Oh yeah the talent/writing/playing thing is dumb. If I like a song I like it regardless who wrote it.

[demonrail666]

Yeah, one of the best things about pop is that it cuts through all that. You judge it solely on its end result, not how it got there. 90% of pop stars are really just celebrities, with a marketable look and personality.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Yeah, one of the best things about pop is that it cuts through all that. You judge it solely on its end result, not how it got there. 90% of pop stars are really just celebrities, with a marketable look and personality.

Right. When it was just Britney and Backstreet Boys, and the music was terrible and uninteresting, and pop and hip-hop/R&B production had not yet fully melded, it was easier to write those kids off because not only were they uninteresting, but the music was completely uninspired.

Aaliyah and Timbaland and Missy Elliot (and also Timbaland) helped this. Lauryn Hill helped this. Etc., etc. And as a result we can bob our heads to undeniably catchy Taylor Swift songs (some of them really are undeniable.. "Bad Blood" is an earworm and a half), and critics can praise Beyoncé albums because the end result is powerful and pretty goddamn consistently culturally relevant, even if it's not the best shit out.

There seems to be a correlation between pop becoming critically viable ("respectable") and indie rock going the way of the dinosaur. Makes me think we might be in store for a new version of "punk," though what it might look like I can't even begin to guess.